Star Trek in general now...

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majestic
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Re: ENTERPRISE - and Star Trek in general now...

Post by majestic » Wed Apr 03, 2019 5:54 pm

Joseph wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 8:35 am
You can safely skip TNG. It's crap. It's actually aged very poorly, worse than TOS. TOS has redeeming factors and charm. TNG... not so much. And TNG has the weakest actors when you move beyond Patrick Stewart.

*grabs popcorn and waits for majestic to arrive* :haha:
Seriously man, talk to your 16-years-past self and let him explain how TNG is way up there. I mean look at my old posts, I now rate DS9 much higher than before and Voyager much lower. That's about as objective about taste as one can get. Therefore I win. :razz:
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Re: ENTERPRISE - and Star Trek in general now...

Post by Joseph » Wed Apr 03, 2019 9:08 pm

majestic wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 5:54 pm
Joseph wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 8:35 am
You can safely skip TNG. It's crap. It's actually aged very poorly, worse than TOS. TOS has redeeming factors and charm. TNG... not so much. And TNG has the weakest actors when you move beyond Patrick Stewart.

*grabs popcorn and waits for majestic to arrive* :haha:
Seriously man, talk to your 16-years-past self and let him explain how TNG is way up there. I mean look at my old posts, I now rate DS9 much higher than before and Voyager much lower. That's about as objective about taste as one can get. Therefore I win. :razz:
If I talked to my younger self, my older, wiser, more experienced self would clearly prevail. TNG sucks. Period. There are... maybe... maybe... enough episodes throughout the seven seasons to make one good one.

I don't have time tonight to go through each character, and that character's actor, to explain the extreme suckitude involved but suckitude it is.

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Re: ENTERPRISE - and Star Trek in general now...

Post by Gorth » Thu Apr 04, 2019 12:13 am

...and that's how religious wars start :mrgreen:

Live long and prosper
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Re: ENTERPRISE - and Star Trek in general now...

Post by majestic » Thu Apr 04, 2019 7:53 pm

Gorth wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 12:13 am
...and that's how religious wars start :mrgreen:

Live long and prosper
More like religious schizms, but yeah, those can easily lead to wars too. :mrgreen:
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Re: ENTERPRISE - and Star Trek in general now...

Post by Joseph » Fri Apr 05, 2019 12:44 am

majestic wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 7:53 pm
Gorth wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 12:13 am
...and that's how religious wars start :mrgreen:

Live long and prosper
More like religious schizms, but yeah, those can easily lead to wars too. :mrgreen:
If I find time this weekend I'll educate you on why the Voyager characters and actor were infinitely superior to this of TNG. I shouldn't have to. It's blatantly obvious. But because we've been online friends and comrades in arms for so long, I will. :razz:

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Re: ENTERPRISE - and Star Trek in general now...

Post by Joseph » Sat Apr 06, 2019 12:21 pm

Alright, because I woke up stupid early on a Saturday... 4:30am... and I've been quietly bored since my wife is sleeping... just for you, majestic...Sorry, this won't be a scholarly essay, there are no footnotes, no bibliography or encyclopedic citing of season and episode numbers, just off the cuff impressions.

TNG vs VOY

The Captains
Picard vs Janeway

Picard, the quiet, introspective, wanna be archaeologist vs Janeway, the hot blooded, passionate, possibly bi-polar girl that doesn't respond well to threats. Well, if I had to serve under one of them, it'd be Janeway. Picard can't make a decision if his life, or yours, depends on it. Janeway can. And come hell or high water, she just cares more about her crew. I'd rather have a captain that mothers me with a strong maternal instinct than a guy that has to call endless briefings. And as for acting, yes, I'm putting Mulgrew on par with Stewart. She played Janeway beautifully, with the right amount of emotion and she evokes a misty eye or two quite well. It's just a shame that the writers handled her character so inconsistently but, as with most flaws in Berman era Trek... well, you blame Berman and Braga.

The First Officers
Riker vs Chakotay

Riker, the poor man's Kirk, the elitist, condescending jerk manwhore that has tantrums and is too scared to go for his own command vs Chakotay, the peaceful, spiritual man than is approachable to everyone, the guy with the dry, sly wit that can kick serious ass when he needs to. Yep, Chakotay wins this by a mile. Riker is just a creep that I wouldn't trust as far as I could throw him. If the chips were down, I'd want Chakotay in my corner every time. And yes, Beltran is a better actor than Frakes. People call Beltran wooden. I don't see it. He played Chakotay perfectly even when the writers couldn't write worth a damn. Frakes gets points for directing. That's his strength.

The Chief Engineers
Geordi vs B'Elanna

Hmmm... the creepy, cyberstalking perv with the personality of a bag of wet, mouldy socks vs the passionate, inspired and internally tortured little girl in a woman's body. Yep, B'Elanna wins. She's a better engineer, a stronger person, a better character, just, gee, all around better. And yes, Dawson was a better actor than Burton although both went on to be great directors.

The Chief Medical Officers
Beverly vs The Doctor

Oh man, do I even need to explain? A doctor with... well, no personality at all. None. Sensors detect nothing vs the Holo Doc who has more personality, compassion and ethics in a backup subroutine than Crusher had in her entire being on the best day of her life... which was doing it with the ghost that did her grannie. If my life was on the line, the Doctor would do anything to save me. Beverly would let me die so she could try to bed Jean-Luc or, failing that, workout in tights with Troi in front of endless mirrors or play some poker with the boys. And acting... again, do I need to say anything? Picardo can run rings around McFadden in his sleep. For all of McFadden's scenes they could have used a cardboard cutout and had the script girl reading her lines off camera and you'd never know.

Chief of Security
Worf vs Tuvok

This is tougher... I love Worf. But, Worf didn't get really good until DS9 so if we're just going on TNG vs VOY Tuvok gets the win. And of course, we're not counting Yar. Poor Tasha, killed by a talking oil slick in S1. And that character had potential. As for acting chops, I'm going with Russ over Dorn. Dorn didn't get much to work with in TNG other than growling and suggesting, in every briefing, that they kill the enemy. In rewatching VOY with my wife, we've both been surprised at Russ' acting range when he gets the chance to step outside the Vulcan stoicism.

Chief of Operations
Data vs Harry

Data. Obviously the win goes to Pinocchio, the wooden toy that wants to be a real boy. Data was written to want to grow. Harry was written to be the ensign. And yes, Spiner had better chops than Wang although, again, during this rewatch, I found myself wishing Wang had been given more to do.

The Bad Boys
Wesley vs Paris

Shut up, Wesley! Seriously... boy genius who knows more about everything than highly trained, highly experienced senior staff.... ugh... vs the the guy that got busted, served time, hangs out in swanky French taverns, listens to Rock & Roll, restores classic 20th century muscle cars, plays Captain Proton on the holodeck, pilots better than anyone ever, is fiercely loyal, ethical and principled to a fault and is the all around coolest cat and best friend you could ever ask for. Wesley's finest moment was in the horribly offensive "relocating the Indians because we TNG writers love beating the racial stereotype drum" episode. Oh, and Wesley went off with the creepy Traveller which just speaks to nothing more than poor parenting on Beverly's part. I guess Picard's hatred of children made Beverly think pawning Wesley's virgin anal cavity off on an intergalactic pedo was her best chance at bedding Picard. Poor little Wesley. Paris had too many finest moments to list. And acting skills, yep, McNeill wins hands down. And again, another gifted director rising from the ranks of Trek actors

Morale Officer
Spot vs Neelix

A gender-fluid, trans-dimensional, transsexual feline vs a guy with face fur and spots. No comparison. Spot wins. Wait... no, Neelix wins. People still gripe about Neelix being annoying. I don't see it. Initially, yes, Neelix is overly exuberant, and Kes' age, Ocampa or not, when they were a thing is almost kind of icky but hey, that's just projecting current values on alien cultures. And when Neelix's backstory comes out in later seasons, the war, the loss of his entire family, everything makes perfect sense. And I think Phillips did a great job with the material he was given. And Spot, well, Spot just can't act. No Spot could that's why they tried passing off male and female cats on the audience and telling us it was the same cat. Pfft. Nerds are too smart for that.

The (Quasi) Counsellors
Troi vs Kes

Ha! Kes! No contest. All Troi ever did was state the blatantly obvious. The Enterprise D would be getting pounded because Picard had to call a briefing for suggestions before he could decide if raising shields would be a good idea and, with hull breaches, weapons offline, a warp core breach imminent, Troi would state, like it was the most profound revelation ever... "Captain, I sense hostility." Kes grew as a character. She provided insight, an ethical counter balance, and was the person who helped the Doctor grow. Troi was, in a word, well, three actually, less than useless. Neither Sirtis or Lien were gifted thespians but Lien had some good moments. Sirtis can't act. At all. Period. I saw better acting in my grade three Christmas play.

The Outsider
Guinan vs Seven

Seven wins. Guinan was another stagnant character. There was no growth at all. Stagnant, semi-omnipotent characters providing cryptic sage advice are boring. And that was Guinan's role. Bartenders don't get involved. They just pour drinks while spouting a variety of cliches and slightly insightful suggestions. Seven, like many other VOY characters, grew. The character had depth, an arc and that beats stagnant every single time. And Ryan is a better actor than Goldberg. Sure, Whoopi is Jeri can act. There were a few episodes where she got to step out of the Borg persona and she knocked it out of the park. You teared up, you wanted to hold that frightened little six-year old assimilation victim in your arms and comfort her and tell her she was safe while wiping away that "something" in your eyes.

TNG, especially the first few seasons has aged very, very badly. It's elitist, pseudo intellectual holier than thou bullshit. I'm not going to go into all the behind the scenes details about the writing, the production, the this and that. What matters is what's on screen and Voyager is the ultimately better product for characters and actors. And I'm not proofreading this either.

And yes, Jellico was a far better captain than Picard.

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Re: Star Trek in general now...

Post by majestic » Sat Apr 06, 2019 6:56 pm

You seem to labour under the delusion that the quality of the characters actually changes the fact that TNG told better stories than VOY. It's funny how you recognize that characterization and writing in Voyager was terrible and give it a pass summing it up with "Well it was B&B, duh!" as if that helps.

But for what it is worth, I find myself agreeing on many of your points* - they just don't make VOY a better show than TNG. We're not talking about a character driven drama here. We'd be watching Babylon 5 then, or talk about certain DS9 episodes. :D

And how much more holier than thou (and "caring" for your crew) can you get when you deliberately strand your ship in the Delta Quadrant with no hope of return just so the retarded little cousin of the Klingons can't play with tech that would be beyond them anyway? :p

*I'm sure you're well aware but that also has a lot to do with Roddenberry's passing allowing the writers to improve characterization. In theory, at least. It worked well on DS9, less so on VOY.
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Re: Star Trek in general now...

Post by Joseph » Sat Apr 06, 2019 9:33 pm

Ah, laddie, I labour under no delusions. You seem to deny that better characters make an episode that may have weaker writing more watchable. And I find VOY far more watchable than TNG. And I don't "recognise" any horrible charcterisation or writing in VOY. It had superior characters, and characters with far more growth. TNG was boring boring boring. No character arcs to speak of. And Geordie and Worf switching departments and uniform colours is not any kind of growth. :razz:

Regarding "holier than thou"... oh, man, TNG was soooo smug, so self-righteous. I don't consider Janeway's decision in the pilot to destroy the array to be a holier than thou decision. That was her interpretation of Starfleet training and regulations. Picard and crew, every day, and twice on Sundays had that condescending "we're so enlightened" attitude just oozing from every pore.

And how could I give anything a pass with saying "Well, it was B&B" when they did TNG. But hey, don't take my word for VOY being better. Ronald D. Moore thought they had a better cast and crew too. As for enjoyment of the stories... I enjoy VOY's stories more. TNG is grating. As I've said many times, there's maybe one season of episodes worth watching. TNG was at its best in seasons 3-5. The first two and last two... icky yucky blech. ;)

For fun this morning, I re-read this entire thread. Can't believe we started it back 2003. Ah, the memories. Here's a quote from you from Monday, January 12th, 2004... You ranked VOY on par with, but before TNG. Booyah biatch! :haha:
majestic wrote:
Mon Jan 12, 2004 11:07 am
OK, here are my inevitable 2c (which are worth more than yours ATM :razz: ):

My Trek Ranking:

DS9 (minus the last one and a half seasons)
TOS
VOY/TNG
Enterprise

Never saw TAS, I don't think they really aired here.

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