What will it be for the next 4 years?

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Wanderon
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Post by Wanderon » Sat Nov 13, 2004 6:34 pm

Just to set the record straight.

1) I have not been a conservative all my life

2) I am not a member of the NRA but I am a gun owner.

3) I am reasonably intelligent have graduated from high school and have some college level education altho not a degree.

4)I have lived in the northeast, the south, the southwest,and northwest regions of the US and Alaska (NY, PA, FL, MS, LA, TX, AZ, CA, OR, WA, AK) and have traveled extensively through the rest of our country (every state except Hawaii) and parts of Canada. I have lived in almost every sort of community you can imagine from big cities like New Orleans, Los Angeles, Chicago, Dallas, Phoenix and Houston, to smaller communities like Rome NY, Fairbanks AK, Biloxi MS, to tiny hamlets like Yelm WA, Florence OR, Grand Canyon Village (south rim), to a log cabin miles and miles from everywhere.

5)I am not currently a member of any religious organization or church but I believe in God and occasionally pray.

6)I have been at almost every level of American society except the extremely rich at different times in my life from a shiftless unemployed drunk/druggie to a reasonably successful owner of my own business with a variety of common levels of lower to almost upper middle class America in between including a couple of failed businesses and numerous types of general employment from musician, to food and beverage jobs and mamangement, to ranch hand, to caretaker, to gold miner, to golf course maintenaince, to sales.

7) I have never been in the military altho I came close to joining as a youngster of 17 backing off at the very last minute and it was only the juvenile deliquent type troubles I had in my teens that allowed me to escape the draft in the mid 60s during my most liberal "hippie" era. (I was going to sing a bar of "Alices" when they sent me to see the psychiatrist at the draft board but didn't have the balls :wink: )

8 )I have been very close to people of various sexual orientations over the course of my life and hold no animosity towards any particular sexual persuasion.

9)I have been married/divorced twice with no children but lived with a woman and her two small sons for a couple of years (as if married) so I do have some idea of what its like to try to raise a family here.

9)I was somewhat active in liberal politics in the 60s and then mostly apathetic until recently altho I did watch from the sidelines and dealt directly with government and the results of our nations policies on many levels throughout my life as an individual, as a businessman, as a citizen, as both a defendant and a victim in criminal proceedings, and as necessary while living in a variety of communities many of which are quite different in how little or how much government effects your life and how easy or how difficult they can be to deal with. My personal experiences with the government go quite beyond what might be considered "normal" for most americans and in all these experiences I paid attention and took some mental notes.

10) I am not a sheep - I think for myself and base my beliefs on my own personal experiences over the course of an extremely varied and well traveled life in this country.

11) I am a patriot- I believe in my country with all its flaws and would not trade it for any other country in the world. I believe my country almost always acts for the greater good and I am proud of our heritage and hopeful for our future.

12) I will always step up and defend myself and my country against those who would put it down with mean spirited anti-american rhetoric.

That should give you some idea of exactly who I am and where my views come from and you can take it or leave it I don't really care but if the focus of this forum continues to be Bush bashing and America bashing then I will likely just wander on and leave you to it...
Not all those who wander are lost...

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Post by Ewen Brown » Sat Nov 13, 2004 7:14 pm

do you believe in fixing the things that are wrong in your county

i never demanded you declare the states to be the home of everything that's unholy (i don't even think that way, don't know what gave you the impression i did)
stupidity causes violence

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Post by Joseph » Sat Nov 13, 2004 8:55 pm

Wanderon wrote:...

That should give you some idea of exactly who I am and where my views come from and you can take it or leave it I don't really care but if the focus of this forum continues to be Bush bashing and America bashing then I will likely just wander on and leave you to it...
That entire post was certainly the most open thing you've said here lately. *applauds* Nothing is ever black and white.

Now, as to the part of the quote I kept.. do you mean you'll not read YoP specifically or that you'll leave WW in general. Do bear in mind that YoP is simply one forum of the many here. Hopefully comments in one forum don't affect your use of NWN. If there's a spill over, let us know and we'll move the thread. :wink:

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Wanderon
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Post by Wanderon » Sat Nov 13, 2004 9:50 pm

Ewen Brown wrote:do you believe in fixing the things that are wrong in your county

i never demanded you declare the states to be the home of everything that's unholy (i don't even think that way, don't know what gave you the impression i did)
I do indeed but what I think is wrong is unlikely to be the same things as you see as wrong based on your posts -

as for what gave me the idea that you viewed my country as the home of all thats evil it was things like:
Ewen Brown wrote: the reality of how the corrupt system you live in works
integrity and honour of your leaders? wtf? you can actually say this with a straight face? and accuse me of not knowing the realities?

i guess they really have molded you well into the needs of your system
And the assorted blather that led up to those remarks- your portrayal of our "system" as you keep calling it as the root of all evil in our land and the belittling of the men and women who run this country...your ranting in other threads about how you spent two years here and have no use for the plastic people you met - all those things lead me to think that you see us and probably capitalism in general as the source of all evil in the world.

Your claims that Bush and Blair lied and misled their way into this war and rather than place any creedence whatsoever in the official investigations that these serious charges brought about you simply dismiss them out of hand as whitewashes and political favoritism when there is absolutely no evidence to suggest that either investigation was flawed. You obviously don't even consider the fact that these investigations had access to some of the highest levels of top secret information from a number of different countries instead resting your decision on what you hear through the press and what you surmise because you think all politicians are corrupt.

It is a jaded and cynical view you offer at best and a view that I find quite offensive to my country, my leaders, my people and myself at worst...
Not all those who wander are lost...

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Wanderon
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Post by Wanderon » Sat Nov 13, 2004 10:01 pm

Josan wrote:
Wanderon wrote:...

That should give you some idea of exactly who I am and where my views come from and you can take it or leave it I don't really care but if the focus of this forum continues to be Bush bashing and America bashing then I will likely just wander on and leave you to it...
That entire post was certainly the most open thing you've said here lately. *applauds* Nothing is ever black and white.

Now, as to the part of the quote I kept.. do you mean you'll not read YoP specifically or that you'll leave WW in general. Do bear in mind that YoP is simply one forum of the many here. Hopefully comments in one forum don't affect your use of NWN. If there's a spill over, let us know and we'll move the thread. :wink:
I suspect the answer to that depends entirely on how angry I am when I leave and whether or not I am of the opinion that the bashing is being promoted by the providers of the forum or whether its just a matter of discussion between members...I once boycotted Kmart for 5 years becuase they refused to take my check but were willing to take my credit card for the purchase of a lawnmower...
Not all those who wander are lost...

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Post by Silverbow » Sat Nov 13, 2004 10:30 pm

Wanderon wrote:10) I am not a sheep - I believe my country almost always acts for the greater good.
Mmm... sig stuff
[b][i]The sky shall rain fire
The seas will boil red with blood
The righteous shall perish
At the hands of the wicked
And all the world shall tremble
Before the star-spangled banner of America

--G.W. Bush-- [/b][/i]

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Post by Joseph » Sat Nov 13, 2004 11:59 pm

Wanderon wrote:
Josan wrote:
Wanderon wrote:...

That should give you some idea of exactly who I am and where my views come from and you can take it or leave it I don't really care but if the focus of this forum continues to be Bush bashing and America bashing then I will likely just wander on and leave you to it...
That entire post was certainly the most open thing you've said here lately. *applauds* Nothing is ever black and white.

Now, as to the part of the quote I kept.. do you mean you'll not read YoP specifically or that you'll leave WW in general. Do bear in mind that YoP is simply one forum of the many here. Hopefully comments in one forum don't affect your use of NWN. If there's a spill over, let us know and we'll move the thread. :wink:
I suspect the answer to that depends entirely on how angry I am when I leave and whether or not I am of the opinion that the bashing is being promoted by the providers of the forum or whether its just a matter of discussion between members...I once boycotted Kmart for 5 years becuase they refused to take my check but were willing to take my credit card for the purchase of a lawnmower...
Well, last time I checked I'm one of two admins at WW. Val hasn't joined in the discussion. Of the mods, only EB has. I'm not 100% sure on this one but it's safe to say I'm speaking my opinion. WW as an "entity" has nothing to do with my opinion.

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Post by Ewen Brown » Sun Nov 14, 2004 5:15 pm

a few comments-

the fact i criticise your county does not mean i do not criticise others and that i am bashing america, that is how you choose to interpret my words. this is a global issue, the whole world is plagued with corruption, the reason people usually and up talking about the states is because that's usually the only place americans know about and being such an important part in the world order it is the center of the disease which plagues the world (and yes, you're not wrong, some people are systematically anti-american, do you think i am one of those)

get over yourself, it's not about you personally, it's not even about your country it's about freedom, that which you think you have while having so little of it, it’s about giving everyone the ability to live as they would like without having to die in order to do it

capitalism is a great system... for the economy. it's terrible for people, it's a dishuman system, which thrives on and promotes exploitation

as for your political system here is a thought for you. i'm willing to bet that if you and josan for instance, sit together and discuss various issues(theoretically all the issues), and you would also do the same thing with your president ,you would be in agreement with josan on more issues than you would with mr. bush. so i ask, how is it that your best choice when voting is a person with which you most likely agree rather little with. don't you ask yourself why your voting choices are so limited

maybe you shouldn't focus on what you think i don't consider and ask yourself why shouldn't someone with good reason to lie actually, do so, and why shouldn't someone with the ability to cover up his lies, do so. it's a game of probability, you choose for yourself which odds you would rather except (no this has nothing to do with the press)

last time i checked, we weren't living in a world full of saint

sorry if you haven't noticed, but along with fine/good/excellent people the us also has its fare share of empty fake people. maybe it's just clearer to someone coming from the outside, if you're going to hold every generalization someone makes as an actual perception of theirs you'll end up finding yourself surrounded with idiots (because that's how everyone will seem when you think that)

crap i made a whole mishmash of this and now i forgot half of what i wanted to write, bah, maybe next time
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Wanderon
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Post by Wanderon » Sun Nov 14, 2004 6:03 pm

Ewen Brown wrote:a few comments-

the fact i criticise your county does not mean i do not criticise others and that i am bashing america, that is how you choose to interpret my words. this is a global issue, the whole world is plagued with corruption, the reason people usually and up talking about the states is because that's usually the only place americans know about and being such an important part in the world order it is the center of the disease which plagues the world (and yes, you're not wrong, some people are systematically anti-american, do you think i am one of those)
your rhetoric seems to point that way yes
get over yourself, it's not about you personally, it's not even about your country it's about freedom, that which you think you have while having so little of it, it’s about giving everyone the ability to live as they would like without having to die in order to do it
Actually it is about myself and it is about my country becuase my relationship to my country is part of what defines me and I happen to believe that in this country you CAN live as you like provided you are willing to work for it and don't expect it to be handed to you. Its about taking responsibility for yourself and your life and not expecting the gov't to meet your every need.
capitalism is a great system... for the economy. it's terrible for people, it's a dishuman system, which thrives on and promotes exploitation
it thrives on hard work and innovation and not settling for average it allows for individualism and not being led around like sheep being fed by their master and sheared for their wool.
as for your political system here is a thought for you. i'm willing to bet that if you and josan for instance, sit together and discuss various issues(theoretically all the issues), and you would also do the same thing with your president ,you would be in agreement with josan on more issues than you would with mr. bush. so i ask, how is it that your best choice when voting is a person with which you most likely agree rather little with. don't you ask yourself why your voting choices are so limited
Our system is not perfect but its better than any other I have seen and it can be changed by the people to reflect the will of the people and Josan is way too far to the left to get my vote today- perhaps in 1967 he might have had a chance but with age comes wisdom and I have seen the folly of my youth. I voted for Bush becuase I believe he is the right man for the job right now and I do in fact agree with him on the main issues that are important to me.
maybe you shouldn't focus on what you think i don't consider and ask yourself why shouldn't someone with good reason to lie actually, do so, and why shouldn't someone with the ability to cover up his lies, do so. it's a game of probability, you choose for yourself which odds you would rather except (no this has nothing to do with the press)

last time i checked, we weren't living in a world full of saint
I once held this view as well that all politicians were corrupt that all government was being manipulated from behind the scenes that it was all part of the military/industrial conspiracy etc etc etc...then over time I grew up and got sober and figured out that for the most part politicians were well meaning folks and that government is generally doing its best to work for the people within its own system and that not everyone had an evil agenda and for the most part people were just trying to make things better in whatever ways they thought was best.
sorry if you haven't noticed, but along with fine/good/excellent people the us also has its fare share of empty fake people. maybe it's just clearer to someone coming from the outside, if you're going to hold every generalization someone makes as an actual perception of theirs you'll end up finding yourself surrounded with idiots (because that's how everyone will seem when you think that)
well actually all people are real people I have never met any fake ones (or at least none that I recognized as actually being aliens) and they all have their own stories to tell and their own crosses to bear and some may handle it better than others but that doesn't mean the ones who don't handle it well are BAD people - inspite of the fact that its the BAD peopla and the BAD things that are touted as NEWS today I happen to think that for the most part this represents only a small minority and that most people are good rather than the other way around and perhaps thats why i get so angry when ill informed folks make blanket accusations about how BAD the Americans are or their government is while ignoring the fact that we just took a REALLY BAD MAN out of his position of power so that he would not hurt us and that in our governments position and Britians government position and in the numerous other governments that supported our actions position that this is in fact a GOOD THING for the world in general. We give our governements permission to act in our behalf and to represent us in the world so I really don;t want to hear about how the PEOPLE in those countries may disagree- if so then they should change their government but as was just noted in my country- when push came to shove we stood behind our leader and what he believes in so maybe that should send a message to the rest of the world that we do in fact mean what we say and under GW I suspect we will also do whatever we say we will too and to me thats good enough- and better than doing nothing.
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Post by Ewen Brown » Sun Nov 14, 2004 6:23 pm

Wanderon wrote:
capitalism is a great system... for the economy. it's terrible for people, it's a dishuman system, which thrives on and promotes exploitation
it thrives on hard work and innovation and not settling for average it allows for individualism and not being led around like sheep being fed by their master and sheared for their wool.
yes... and you are willing to claim me as brainwashed but you are clear in your mind :roll: ...go on ,breath in the mottos of your masters

you are too keen on placing me under some title that makes it convenient for you to deal with me

it seems i have no hope of ever getting you to understand what i say, not surprising considering how people are formed, you are so locked in your mind in your thoughts that i am attacking you that you just ignore everything i write by simply proclaiming it for yourself to be nonsense as it is easier for you to deal with that way

if the sheep is blind how does it know it's not a sheep

if the sheep is blind and the herder tells it it's not a sheep and it doesn't question the herder how can it know it is a sheep or ever expect to know it
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Post by Joseph » Sun Nov 14, 2004 6:26 pm

Hmm, I'm to far to the left because I'm a humanitarian? Because I don't like violence, guns or killing?

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Post by Silverbow » Sun Nov 14, 2004 6:44 pm

Wanderon wrote: I once held this view as well that all politicians were corrupt that all government was being manipulated from behind the scenes that it was all part of the military/industrial conspiracy etc etc etc...then over time I grew up and got sober and figured out that for the most part politicians were well meaning folks and that government is generally doing its best to work for the people within its own system and that not everyone had an evil agenda and for the most part people were just trying to make things better in whatever ways they thought was best.
You can't possibly be so naive as to believe this... by all that's holy, even Crucis or Gregster understand the realities of politics. :?
[b][i]The sky shall rain fire
The seas will boil red with blood
The righteous shall perish
At the hands of the wicked
And all the world shall tremble
Before the star-spangled banner of America

--G.W. Bush-- [/b][/i]

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Wanderon
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Post by Wanderon » Sun Nov 14, 2004 8:08 pm

Josan wrote:Hmm, I'm to far to the left because I'm a humanitarian? Because I don't like violence, guns or killing?
Too far left to get my vote yes... the reasons are not as simple as those but yes those veiws do have some bearing on it...
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Wanderon
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Post by Wanderon » Sun Nov 14, 2004 8:16 pm

Ewen Brown wrote:
Wanderon wrote:
capitalism is a great system... for the economy. it's terrible for people, it's a dishuman system, which thrives on and promotes exploitation
it thrives on hard work and innovation and not settling for average it allows for individualism and not being led around like sheep being fed by their master and sheared for their wool.
yes... and you are willing to claim me as brainwashed but you are clear in your mind :roll: ...go on ,breath in the mottos of your masters

you are too keen on placing me under some title that makes it convenient for you to deal with me

it seems i have no hope of ever getting you to understand what i say, not surprising considering how people are formed, you are so locked in your mind in your thoughts that i am attacking you that you just ignore everything i write by simply proclaiming it for yourself to be nonsense as it is easier for you to deal with that way

if the sheep is blind how does it know it's not a sheep

if the sheep is blind and the herder tells it it's not a sheep and it doesn't question the herder how can it know it is a sheep or ever expect to know it
The point is you want to attack my country and my system as flawed and dishuman- I happen to think they work fine and work better than the socialist ideas that you offer- but I am NOT attacking your country or your leaders or your system - if you are happy under socialism then fine be happy- but don't claim that becuase I am not interested in sharing that system with you that I am some kind of moron or that there is nothing to capitalism than lies and hypocrisy...

In all these posts I have responded to attacks and what I consider misinformation about MY LEADERS and MY COUNTRY and MY WAY OF LIFE- I don't even know what country you are from nor do I care- its not an issue for me - why are my country and my politics an issue for you???
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Post by Wanderon » Sun Nov 14, 2004 8:22 pm

Silverbow wrote:
Wanderon wrote: I once held this view as well that all politicians were corrupt that all government was being manipulated from behind the scenes that it was all part of the military/industrial conspiracy etc etc etc...then over time I grew up and got sober and figured out that for the most part politicians were well meaning folks and that government is generally doing its best to work for the people within its own system and that not everyone had an evil agenda and for the most part people were just trying to make things better in whatever ways they thought was best.
You can't possibly be so naive as to believe this... by all that's holy, even Crucis or Gregster understand the realities of politics. :?
Wise enough not naive enough - is there corruption and deciet and manipulation in governement and politics- of course there is just like there is in business and in anything else where large groups of people with different agendas meet...but it's a matter of degree and when you get back to basics the majority of people in politics are just trying to do the right thing for their communties as they see it - its a form of community service and you have to care about your community/state/ or nation in order to be successful at it.
Not all those who wander are lost...

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