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Phosphor
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Post by Phosphor » Wed Dec 31, 2003 5:23 pm

Spider wrote: The total lack of a cohesive story-arc is what I find msot disturbing about Farscape. That and the muppet (not the character behind the muppet, I actually like that one. It's the actual muppet I frown on).

I also find a lot of the individual episodes to be somewhat lacking in content. There is too much dead time, that doesn't further the story or really develops a character. Time that just feels wasted.
The story arc solidifies at the end of season 1 and from there really starts to develop. But I don't find the show needs a story arc, the one-off episdoes are just as interesting, if not more so sometimes, than the "core" stories.
By "muppet" I assume you're referring to Rygel (the exiled Dominar - looks like a frog-slug)? Or Pilot? I was trying to get a friend of mine (who loves sci-fi) into Farscape, and he said the puppets threw him off. But he kept watching and it became his favourite show - just took a bit to get past the puppet. After a while, I completely forget he's not real - his character is so good.
I also don't feel the characters are very interesting. The potential is there, it just hasn't been tapped into much yet. I do realize there are more depth to them than has been shown, but that's just it. It hasn't been shown. Had they used some of the time mentioned above I believe they could have made me care a lot more about the characters. As it stands only the blue one (and to a somewhat lesser degree the muppet) has has shown her true colors (bad pun, I know).
Zhaan is very, very cool. Crichton (the human) really develops in very interesting ways, too. They all do, but Crichton is the most interesting as his path is very unorthodox for a "hero" character.
One thing I love about Farscape though is the theme score. I really love it.
Me too; it's up there with the Dr. Who theme as far as Best TV Show Theme Ever goes (not as good as Dr. Who - which is The Best Ever though).

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Post by Spider » Wed Dec 31, 2003 5:54 pm

Phosphor wrote:The story arc solidifies at the end of season 1 and from there really starts to develop. But I don't find the show needs a story arc, the one-off episdoes are just as interesting, if not more so sometimes, than the "core" stories.
Ideally any given episode in a series is self-contained (ie all plot points are resolved in the same issue they appear) while still progressing the overage story-line. This is really ahrd to do well though so it doesn't happen very often. If we can't have that I'd rather have a strong overall story arc over lots of one-ofs (one of the reasons I'm not a huge fan of any of the Star Trek series other than DS9). Or you just have one-ofs and screw overall story arc completely.

All in my opinion of course.
:)

I don't like when a story-arc exists but is rarely touched. If you're going to be chased by the Peacekeepers, then show some Peacekeepers. So far the main antagonist (at least that has been introduced in the series) has been in two (three if counting his hologram) episodes and the threat of being captured has appeard in an additional two or three. Without any real story progression or character progression there just isn't much actually happening. But I understand from what you write that this will change, so I'll at least see through the first season sometime.

(What I saw of ST: Voyager had the same problem btw, if you're stranded on the other side of the universe at least make an effort to get home. And show the frustration of not knowing if you'll ever see your loved ones again. And that means more than once every ten episodes. But since I haven't seen much Voyager maybe I am just completely off the mark here and have just been unlucky)

Overall, plot progression is very important to me. I think a lot of these sort of things as a writer and like seeing clever plots.
By "muppet" I assume you're referring to Rygel (the exiled Dominar - looks like a frog-slug)? Or Pilot? I was trying to get a friend of mine (who loves sci-fi) into Farscape, and he said the puppets threw him off. But he kept watching and it became his favourite show - just took a bit to get past the puppet. After a while, I completely forget he's not real - his character is so good.
Yeah, I meant Rygel. Pilot doesn't bother me at all since he doesn't appear very often and when he does it's often as a hologram which kinda makes it look better. Rygel really puts me off though, which is a shame because his character is by far the most interesting so far. He has a lot more depth to him than the others give him credit for and he keeps showing new sides of himself. But his physical apeparance bothers me, I'm very sensitive to these sorts of things, at least until I'm sucked in by a show. I refused to watch B5 for the longest time because the CGI is so poor. Once I got into the show, the qualities of it made me able to overlook the flaws but I still noticed them none the less. Maybe the same will happen with Farscape.

After all, I WANT to like this show, I really do. A lot of the concepts that have been put forth are intriguing.
Zhaan is very, very cool. Crichton (the human) really develops in very interesting ways, too. They all do, but Crichton is the most interesting as his path is very unorthodox for a "hero" character.
Personally I feel that Erin has the most potential as a character. There is so much potential underneath the surface there and if that character develops well it will be really cool.

I don't like Crichton overly much yet, since I think he is kinda boring and frankly not very believable. I mean who can develop a whole new way of space-flight acceleration and still have time to develop a body that looks like that? He's just too much of an übermensch for me.
Me too; it's up there with the Dr. Who theme as far as Best TV Show Theme Ever goes (not as good as Dr. Who - which is The Best Ever though).
Don't recall the Dr. Who one off the top of my head, but I agree that Farscape has one of the best ever.
:)

I actually watch through the end credits when I watch it just so I can hear the theme...
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Post by Phosphor » Wed Dec 31, 2003 6:22 pm

Spider wrote: Ideally any given episode in a series is self-contained (ie all plot points are resolved in the same issue they appear) while still progressing the overage story-line. This is really ahrd to do well though so it doesn't happen very often.
It is hard to do, but even the Farscape one-offs have something in them that carries through to a later episode or episodes. It may not be part of the main story arc, but back-references are common.
I don't like when a story-arc exists but is rarely touched. If you're going to be chased by the Peacekeepers, then show some Peacekeepers. So far the main antagonist (at least that has been introduced in the series) has been in two (three if counting his hologram) episodes and the threat of being captured has appeard in an additional two or three. Without any real story progression or character progression there just isn't much actually happening. But I understand from what you write that this will change, so I'll at least see through the first season sometime.
Just wait until the last few season 1 episodes. The PKs become very interesting. The main antagonist (I'm guessing you mean Crais) isn't really the main antagonist..
Overall, plot progression is very important to me. I think a lot of these sort of things as a writer and like seeing clever plots.
Then I urge you to give Farscape a chance.
Yeah, I meant Rygel. Pilot doesn't bother me at all since he doesn't appear very often and when he does it's often as a hologram which kinda makes it look better. Rygel really puts me off though, which is a shame because his character is by far the most interesting so far. He has a lot more depth to him than the others give him credit for and he keeps showing new sides of himself. But his physical apeparance bothers me, I'm very sensitive to these sorts of things, at least until I'm sucked in by a show. I refused to watch B5 for the longest time because the CGI is so poor. Once I got into the show, the qualities of it made me able to overlook the flaws but I still noticed them none the less. Maybe the same will happen with Farscape.
Rygel really is a fascinating character and just when you think you've got him pegged, a new facet of his persona appears. All the Farscape characters are like that - they're real. They're not an archetype or just a tool to fill some role.
I understand what you mean about B5, and it's because of that, that I never watched the show. From what I did see, it looked terrible. But I'm eagerly awaiting it to return to Space (the sci-fi channel here in Canada) so I can see it - I'd like to give it a chance as I've heard nothing but great things about it.
Personally I feel that Erin has the most potential as a character. There is so much potential underneath the surface there and if that character develops well it will be really cool.

I don't like Crichton overly much yet, since I think he is kinda boring and frankly not very believable. I mean who can develop a whole new way of space-flight acceleration and still have time to develop a body that looks like that? He's just too much of an übermensch for me.
Yep, Aeryn is great. Her character development is very slow, but it's clear as to why - she's a renegade PK and so not only has to adapt to new companions, but a new situation aboard a ship formerly under PK control and her conditioning has to be chipped away. Her relationship with Crichton is a wonderful thing to watch develop and grow.
Crichton's a neat character, mainly in how he adapts to his new life. Yeah, he's a bit of an ubermensch type of guy, but his persona doesn't really reflect that. My only quibble with him is that his character doesn't match his background. But he's still a great character.

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Post by Ewen Brown » Wed Dec 31, 2003 6:39 pm

ok i'm officially bored enough to post in this thread

i'm currently catching the 2nd season of enterprise

it's a nice enough show to watch

tng was better though (maybe because i was younger when i watched it)

personally i prefer andromeda for my space show viewing even though it's been getting worse and they keep deleting characters

farscape looks cool on paper but i can't say as no one airs it here

and the enterprise theme song is just plain terrible
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Post by Spider » Wed Dec 31, 2003 7:11 pm

Phosphor wrote:Just wait until the last few season 1 episodes. The PKs become very interesting. The main antagonist (I'm guessing you mean Crais) isn't really the main antagonist..
I kinda figured that. Then it kinda makes sense that Crais isn't really an overwhelming threat, but until that point it's kinda annoying. Probably won't bother me now that I've had it confirmed though.
:)
Then I urge you to give Farscape a chance.
I'll give it a second go as soon as I'm done with Andromeda.
Rygel really is a fascinating character and just when you think you've got him pegged, a new facet of his persona appears.
But he's a muppet!
;)
I understand what you mean about B5, and it's because of that, that I never watched the show. From what I did see, it looked terrible. But I'm eagerly awaiting it to return to Space (the sci-fi channel here in Canada) so I can see it - I'd like to give it a chance as I've heard nothing but great things about it.
And I urge you to give B5 a chance. It really is all that and then some. Though granted the first season isn't anywhere near as good as the rest. It gets better though. A lot better. Season 2 is really good, but it's in season 3 it really flies.

Oh and something like 95% of all episodes further the main plot in one way or another. It can be very minor so you won't notice it unless you know what to look for, but it's there.
Yep, Aeryn is great. Her character development is very slow, but it's clear as to why - she's a renegade PK and so not only has to adapt to new companions, but a new situation aboard a ship formerly under PK control and her conditioning has to be chipped away. Her relationship with Crichton is a wonderful thing to watch develop and grow.
Crichton's a neat character, mainly in how he adapts to his new life. Yeah, he's a bit of an ubermensch type of guy, but his persona doesn't really reflect that. My only quibble with him is that his character doesn't match his background. But he's still a great character.
Okay, I'll wait until I've seen some more before I'll let you know if you're right or wrong...
:)
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Post by majestic » Mon Jan 12, 2004 11:07 am

OK, here are my inevitable 2c (which are worth more than yours ATM :razz: ):

My Trek Ranking:

DS9 (minus the last one and a half seasons)
TOS
VOY/TNG
Enterprise

Never saw TAS, I don't think they really aired here.

As for Enterprise, I'm curious how it'll continue. I'll prolly be downloading the new episode in less than two days =)

I'm enjoying it, despite all the temporal cold war silliness and the stupid writing in parts of it. Hell, I even liked the beauty and the beast episode, whatever gets Hoshi into a dress is fine with me ;)

As for other sci-fi shows:

Babylon 5: Great. I'm still waiting for my 3rd Season boxed set. I hate the deliverly delay already. However, is it the "better" Trek series? Hardly. They're just *too* different to be compared directly (IMO).

Andromeda: Started out awesome (first season and up until episode 12 of the second) - it beared the mark of RHW, damn I love that guy (in a non gay way, that is). It just kept on running downhill from the point where Tribune fired him. Had the potential to become one of the best sci fi shows, ended up as another Earth: Final Conflict.

Farscape: Never really got into it. Had the bad habit of being aired simultaneously to the last few Seasons of Voyager.

Space Above and Beyond (aka Space 2063): Started out promising. Bad, BAD ending :(

Enough for now :P
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Post by Magnus » Mon Jan 12, 2004 2:06 pm

When it comes to Sci-Fi series, I'd rank them thus:


THE HITLIST

1: Babylon 5

It's simply better than everything. The characters rule, the setting is kewl, actions in previous episodes have repercussions later in the series, there is an overarching plot - simply a fantastic series. Not to mention the special effects (IE the ships n' such) - amazing, considering it's age. And it's all done on Amiga 4000's.

2: Star Trek: DS9

For the same reasons as B5, just not as polished, and a bit too sugary-sweet, like all Star Trek.

3: Farscape

Frankly, Farscape would have ranked a lot higher, if it wasn't for the fact, that the episodes are so jumbled - no overarching plot!

4: X-Files

It just rules! :P

5: Star Trek: TNG

Basically, it's here because it's the only other decent Sci-Fi I've seen.

SHITLIST:

1: Star Trek: Voyager

Dear lord this one sucked. I have nothing positive to say about it, apart from that borg lass. She was nice.

2: Star Trek: TOS

At least William Shatner was (involuntarily) funny.
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Post by Lord Tingeling » Mon Jan 12, 2004 2:14 pm

I really liked Voyager. But then again, I'm not much of a trekkie. Haven't even seen DS9. :look:
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Post by majestic » Tue Jan 27, 2004 5:52 pm

*bump*

Has anyone even bothered to watch the recent Enterprise episodes? :)
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Post by Ewen Brown » Tue Jan 27, 2004 7:07 pm

i'm currently near the end of season 2, so no
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Post by Phosphor » Tue Jan 27, 2004 8:08 pm

majestic wrote:*bump*

Has anyone even bothered to watch the recent Enterprise episodes? :)
Yep. The one with the religious aliens (forget the episode names) was terrible, probably the worst episode of the series. It was just badly written and daft in composition.
The recent episdoe, "Proving Ground", was fantastic. The Andorians are great, made even greater by Jeff Coombs' character, Shran.
He really made that episode work. Without him and the Andorian element, the episode would have been terribly dull.
Andorians always mean good times.
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Post by majestic » Wed Jan 28, 2004 5:44 am

Phosphor wrote:The recent episdoe, "Proving Ground", was fantastic. The Andorians are great, made even greater by Jeff Coombs' character, Shran.
Hehehe. I kind of liked Proving Ground too, though it wasn't *that* stellar IMO.

And I liked Coombs better as Brunt in DS9. ;)
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Post by Joseph » Wed Jan 28, 2004 12:38 pm

Well, I missed the religious highjackers episode. Seen it before in TOS (the Way to Eden) and in ST:V.

Saw the Andorian one. My last on the tele. Now I have to DL episodes. :cry:

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Post by Phosphor » Wed Jan 28, 2004 1:01 pm

Josan wrote:Well, I missed the religious highjackers episode. Seen it before in TOS (the Way to Eden) and in ST:V.
Yep, it's a stock plot.

What kind of internet connection do you have - phone line or cable?
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Post by Joseph » Wed Jan 28, 2004 1:09 pm

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