IWD1 - once upon a time. Now again

From the late, great studio that brought us together
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D. Sauzi
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Post by D. Sauzi » Thu Feb 07, 2008 12:06 am

hmm for a next game, i saw in the speedrun it saves you lots of time if you just kill the Auril priestess in the bar before you leave Kuldahar
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Post by Runenklinge » Thu Feb 07, 2008 12:39 am

uh huh, thought about that but didnt try because I thought it would make the townsfolk go hostile


gonna try it this time

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Post by Gorth » Mon Feb 11, 2008 11:16 am

D. Sauzi wrote:hmm for a next game, i saw in the speedrun it saves you lots of time if you just kill the Auril priestess in the bar before you leave Kuldahar
And *now* you tell us... :shock:
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Post by majestic » Mon Feb 11, 2008 9:51 pm

Runenklinge wrote:about the only issue I have with the game are the endless tracks through already clearead areas.
I use the teleportation cheat for that. I don't really see anything wrong with jumping from one exit to the next on areas I already cleared out fair and square.

I use this in every IE game except PS:T (for obvious reasons).
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Post by Runenklinge » Fri Oct 16, 2009 12:12 pm

Gorth wrote:
D. Sauzi wrote:hmm for a next game, i saw in the speedrun it saves you lots of time if you just kill the Auril priestess in the bar before you leave Kuldahar
And *now* you tell us... :shock:
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btw I tried that, but I got no dialogue with the barkeeper afterwards about her stuff, and she didn't have it on her (the cloak most notably). So I'd prefer to confront her in the cave.

On an aside, playing by the p&p rules is a mixed bag. I created a party of four with unmodified stats at one point and I had a fighter with Con 12 (no modifier). At level 7, he only had about 20 HP when you could in theory be close to 100. Needless to say his survivability was very low and I started over with a different party. I would now say in a no reload game, Con is probably the most important stat on everyone, closely followed by Dex.

I really want to get my hands on an English version to play a game with my favorite evil four-piece:

Human Fighter (dualed to spec mage at lvl 9)

Dwarf Fighter/Cleric

Halfling Fighter/Thief

Half-Elf Bard


I once had the complete IWD1 on DVD but can't find it. Then I ordered an IWD budget bundle two times from two different stores. Both times they were using the English box cover in their ads, but each time I actually got German bundles with a different cover :x

edit: to explain, the German versions suck donkey dicks

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Post by D. Sauzi » Wed Oct 21, 2009 3:49 pm

I never tried that trick myself either, just saw it in that speed run, might well be its sort of buggy in that you lose out on all the goodies but the guy in the tomb way down does recognize the fact, which saves you the walking to the ice cave and back. On the other hand, if it doesnt work its a bit a long road to test it.
Cant really imagine the speedrun guy cheated though, but it might well have to do with a certain patch number or something.

And yes, Con is always the most important stat ;), finally a follower for my church, ive been spreading the words of Con>Dex since i was a teenager.

Interesting though your non-loading party has so many fighters, i would definitely go with more wizard, for all the ways to save your campaign they come with, Mirror Image, Invisibility, Haste, Stoneskin, all great life savers, and then im not mentioning the utility value of stuff like Knock or a few Sleeps to take care of your hit point problems starting out.
(of course i mean either very high con wizards or wizard/fighters).

I think in a four person party non loading iwd 1 i would pick a dwarven fighter, a full wizard, a wizard/fighter and one slot i'd be in doubt about, prolly still a Cleric, though its a high price to pay for Sanctuary and a late game Raise Dead. Depends a bit on how Sanctuary works in iwd1, if you can loot containers invisibly there as well i think the Cleric is worth it to skip some tough parts. (i wouldnt multi the cleric because that hurts his raise dead starting time so much, and i would like him maybe to turn a few things when the hps are still low in the vale.)

I believe i tried it a pretty large while back i think, but i believe i stopped due to very long travel times to raise my party in Kuldahar. This is a bit more harsh in IWD compared to the BGs where churches are spread a bit less sparingly. (And theres prolly better NPCs around than you can roll).
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Post by Runenklinge » Wed Oct 21, 2009 6:04 pm

D. Sauzi wrote:And yes, Con is always the most important stat ;), finally a follower for my church, ive been spreading the words of Con>Dex since i was a teenager.
in 3d/ 4th ed this seems to have changed again though, because everyone keeps on gaining HP from class past level 9. So I'd say it's only really useful now to have very high Con on a defensive tank while everyone else can get as much or as little as they like. In 2nd ed. this is different though
Interesting though your non-loading party has so many fighters, i would definitely go with more wizard, for all the ways to save your campaign they come with, Mirror Image, Invisibility, Haste, Stoneskin, all great life savers, and then im not mentioning the utility value of stuff like Knock or a few Sleeps to take care of your hit point problems starting out.
(of course i mean either very high con wizards or wizard/fighters).
I prefer fighters in that case because they have less of a hit-or-miss factor than the mages, i.e. they are more reliable so you can calculate their effectiveness better. Of course, in a linear game like IWD this is not quite as important because you can't choose your enemies anyways, but it still keeps you from charging into a room full of baddies. Also Stoneskin is only a safer for the mage himself in 2nd ed which is a pity, it's such an awesome spell in 3d ed. Knock is made up for by the thief.

edit: that party does have two full blown mages though. The fighter-->wizard is very neat in IWD because at the start mages are downright useless and you gain levels very quickly. You might want to change to wiz at a lower level than 9 though. Also the bard is a full wizard in HoW, he can cast almost as many spells as a mage plus use instruments (and there are lots of them), I think he can even cast level 9 spells (unlike in PnP)
I think in a four person party non loading iwd 1 i would pick a dwarven fighter, a full wizard, a wizard/fighter and one slot i'd be in doubt about, prolly still a Cleric, though its a high price to pay for Sanctuary and a late game Raise Dead. Depends a bit on how Sanctuary works in iwd1, if you can loot containers invisibly there as well i think the Cleric is worth it to skip some tough parts. (i wouldnt multi the cleric because that hurts his raise dead starting time so much, and i would like him maybe to turn a few things when the hps are still low in the vale.)


I can't see myself not using a thief in a no reload game since you can get screwed with HP even if you have a high Con, so wading through traps seems a bad idea in Dragon's Eye when you're charged by Yuan-ti. Of course, it might be possible to scout ahead with an invisible Cleric to find traps, memorize where they are and trying to avoid stepping on them... seems a lot of hassle though.
I believe i tried it a pretty large while back i think, but i believe i stopped due to very long travel times to raise my party in Kuldahar. This is a bit more harsh in IWD compared to the BGs where churches are spread a bit less sparingly. (And theres prolly better NPCs around than you can roll).
I noticed that having a squishy Elf and no cleric in the party was a very bad, or at least costly, idea

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Post by D. Sauzi » Thu Oct 22, 2009 2:09 pm

Runenklinge wrote: in 3d/ 4th ed this seems to have changed again though, because everyone keeps on gaining HP from class past level 9. So I'd say it's only really useful now to have very high Con on a defensive tank while everyone else can get as much or as little as they like. In 2nd ed. this is different though
True of course, but it doesnt make a large enough difference for me as the hps are still very important if gotten only nine times. Depends a bit on the game you play though, i can imagine it not being that important in ToB or the like, but IWD is mainly about those first ten levels. Also depends a bit on how many sides you can be attacked and in IWD i remember that is quite many with all the encounters upon entering a new area.


I prefer fighters in that case because they have less of a hit-or-miss factor than the mages, i.e. they are more reliable so you can calculate their effectiveness better. Of course, in a linear game like IWD this is not quite as important because you can't choose your enemies anyways, but it still keeps you from charging into a room full of baddies. Also Stoneskin is only a safer for the mage himself in 2nd ed which is a pity, it's such an awesome spell in 3d ed. Knock is made up for by the thief.
I can't see myself not using a thief in a no reload game since you can get screwed with HP even if you have a high Con, so wading through traps seems a bad idea in Dragon's Eye when you're charged by Yuan-ti. Of course, it might be possible to scout ahead with an invisible Cleric to find traps, memorize where they are and trying to avoid stepping on them... seems a lot of hassle though.
Hehe, i reason the other way around, between Knock and Mirror Image (for traps) there's no need for a rogue. Of course that needs a tank with mirror image or some knowledge of the game, but i usually have both. Just listed Stoneskin to take a fourth level great spell, and since i play so many wizard dual classes it is definitely worth it. Nonetheless, for saving purposes i maybe shouldve said Resilient Sphere.
That Yuanti area is indeed one of the more evil areas trapwise in the game though. Since i usually take the full party anyway chances are i might include a rogue/wizard, though it always turns out the fun character i only use for some invisibility/backstabs.
edit: that party does have two full blown mages though. The fighter-->wizard is very neat in IWD because at the start mages are downright useless and you gain levels very quickly. You might want to change to wiz at a lower level than 9 though. Also the bard is a full wizard in HoW, he can cast almost as many spells as a mage plus use instruments (and there are lots of them), I think he can even cast level 9 spells (unlike in PnP)
Hmm, i never played HoW in all these years, should give it a try maybe some time, but all ive read about it makes it seem so broken, with the Kobolds having huge amounts of hp, save bonuses and damage bonuses that playing with miss chances and heavily blessing/malisoning the ones involved. I also saw a great lot of work on bringing down or raising up resistances.
Maybe that is where your reliability comes in too, casting Sleep on goblins usually has a very high success rate, better than most vanilla fighters, but if the enemies save too well it all becomes rather lucky.

Also, i usually play wizard-->fighters instead of the other way around (or thief), I level them up till 7, 9 or 11 to gain Stoneskin, Imp Invis or Tensers, and then continue in the fighter attacks for the remainder (though iinv isnt in iwd i believe). Still not really sure what better though, i played it the other way around a few times too, which has advantages in the hp rolls, and switching when you reach, say, grandmastery in quarterstaves seems a good idea too. The part of getting back your abilities seems a bit harder that way though.

Strange though the way we think differently about this, i love mages in the low levels, especially due to sleep, which works wonder in the tutorial, against goblins or yeti. I believe i only got so far in my BG nonloading runs because of that spell. Against all the undead they are a lot less, you can use Scorcher quite okay sometimes, and you can interrupt the lich like fellow with some magic missiles, but apart from that they're quite useless until Haste & Fireball indeed.

Might try it out a bit though, interesting to see if im talking nonsense here.
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Post by Runenklinge » Thu Oct 22, 2009 6:16 pm

D. Sauzi wrote:Hehe, i reason the other way around, between Knock and Mirror Image (for traps) there's no need for a rogue.
so Mirror Image works against traps... that's not how it's meant to work by the book though is it? Maybe that's why I prefer fighters/ rough chars over mages because I can't be arsed to experiment for exploits

Hmm, i never played HoW in all these years, should give it a try maybe some time, but all ive read about it makes it seem so broken, with the Kobolds having huge amounts of hp, save bonuses and damage bonuses that playing with miss chances and heavily blessing/malisoning the ones involved. I also saw a great lot of work on bringing down or raising up resistances.
sorry, I didnt mean Heart of Fury mode, I simply meant having Heart of Winter installed (I dont think that changes monster HPs much)
Also, i usually play wizard-->fighters instead of the other way around (or thief), I level them up till 7, 9 or 11 to gain Stoneskin, Imp Invis or Tensers, and then continue in the fighter attacks for the remainder (though iinv isnt in iwd i believe). Still not really sure what better though, i played it the other way around a few times too, which has advantages in the hp rolls, and switching when you reach, say, grandmastery in quarterstaves seems a good idea too. The part of getting back your abilities seems a bit harder that way though.
I find the dualing rules in IE games confusing anyways. I think it was in BG2 where you could only dual from mage to thief, but not from thief to mage etc.
Strange though the way we think differently about this, i love mages in the low levels, especially due to sleep, which works wonder in the tutorial, against goblins or yeti.
for Yetis, I love the Horror spell to break them up. But like you said, they almost never make their saves, so having only one mage or even multi class mage suffices there, then the fighters can hack them apart.
I believe i only got so far in my BG nonloading runs because of that spell. Against all the undead they are a lot less, you can use Scorcher quite okay sometimes, and you can interrupt the lich like fellow with some magic missiles, but apart from that they're quite useless until Haste & Fireball indeed.
playing BG non reload is almost too much of a hassle in my book, because it takes quite some time to level up and become less squishy. It's just frustrating for how long enemies can kill any char in one or two hits

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Post by D. Sauzi » Thu Oct 22, 2009 7:13 pm

Runenklinge wrote:so Mirror Image works against traps... that's not how it's meant to work by the book though is it? Maybe that's why I prefer fighters/ rough chars over mages because I can't be arsed to experiment for exploits
Hmm, depends a bit how you look at it, the images are of course meant to dodge incoming attacks, doesnt really matter who fires the arrow, a trap or an enemy. Otoh its a bit strange when theres a fireball trap, though same there, it works with enemy fireballs, so why not trapped ones. I found this out while soloing a bard btw, and im quite happy it works, else every solo char would need some sort of rogue levels.

In P&P the spell description states that you get a bunch of images enemies cant distinguish between. As such that would mean that area spells and attacks that dont rely on sight by pass the image defense. Also if enemies have deciphered which image is the real one (by hitting you for instance) they can bypass the spell, though you can randomize the images again on your own turn. I guess its rather hard to code that kind of stuff.
sorry, I didnt mean Heart of Fury mode, I simply meant having Heart of Winter installed (I dont think that changes monster HPs much)
Right, i see that now, dont know why i started thinking of HoF, we both used HoW everywhere as abbreviation :).
I find the dualing rules in IE games confusing anyways. I think it was in BG2 where you could only dual from mage to thief, but not from thief to mage etc.
Hmm, afaik theres two things. 1) you need a 17 in the primary stat of the class you want to become, and a 15 in the primary of the class you are. So for a Mage->Thief you'd need 17 dex and 15 int.
2) you can only take kits with the original class, not with the one you go into, so you can make an Assassin->Mage, but not a Mage->Assassin or Assassin->Conjurer.
playing BG non reload is almost too much of a hassle in my book, because it takes quite some time to level up and become less squishy. It's just frustrating for how long enemies can kill any char in one or two hits
I found out a little trick there, I start out by doing the quest with the water bowl in the farmlands & bridge area, which pushes you up to level 3 in one jump. To do so i pick up Xzar/Monty and Jaheira/Khalid quickly, because the former bring Oils of Speed, and the latter a Potion of Invisibility. With the two speed potions you can race past the Ankhegs, which is the only real danger in doing this trick, if things go wrong you can turn invisible. Playing a Cleric with Sanctuary works too of course.
The harder thing is picking up Jaheira for that potion, since you need to get that bounty out of the way and he has a habit of killing the first guy he sees with magic missiles. You dont really need the invis of course, but it sure is something useful for getting past those Ankhegs, and if your party gets killed by this bounty hunter you can simply sell the Wizardry Ring in the tree near FAI for 9000 worth of raise dead spells. (Of course throw out your party members before you gain the xp for the bowl quest, finding npcs with 2 or 3 levels is much easier.)
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Post by D. Sauzi » Fri Oct 23, 2009 1:23 pm

Oh, and we just took down that priestess in a multiplayer game, and all she dropped was a mstar +1, not sure what cloak you're referring to, but if she drops more over yonder i guess thats random..
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Post by Runenklinge » Fri Oct 23, 2009 5:31 pm

D. Sauzi wrote:
Hmm, depends a bit how you look at it, the images are of course meant to dodge incoming attacks, doesnt really matter who fires the arrow, a trap or an enemy. Otoh its a bit strange when theres a fireball trap, though same there, it works with enemy fireballs, so why not trapped ones. I found this out while soloing a bard btw, and im quite happy it works, else every solo char would need some sort of rogue levels.
I thought of area effect traps alright, but of course there are arrows and such. Thing is though, a trap usually doesn't "aim" for anything, the arrow would just fly in the direction of the trigger, so the mirror images shouldn't do anything. Of course, I'm interpreting the rules too much for a PC game, I know.

Hmm, afaik theres two things. 1) you need a 17 in the primary stat of the class you want to become, and a 15 in the primary of the class you are. So for a Mage->Thief you'd need 17 dex and 15 int.
2) you can only take kits with the original class, not with the one you go into, so you can make an Assassin->Mage, but not a Mage->Assassin or Assassin->Conjurer.
I maxed all stats and took no kits to be sure, but I couldnt choose one of the two... I think Thief to Mage didnt work. Also, Mage to Fighter didnt work, but the other way round it did. I think version was SoA English plus latest patch and without ToB.

edit: about BG, yeah that headhunter is hard to do. What I like to do though is to send another char (not mine) up front, and also to have everyone attack him with missile weapons on sight to disrupt him (also the wand of magic missiles from Imoen helps here).

Using an exploit/ shortcut like that one quest, hmm, can be fun one time but I couldn't be arsed to use that exact same strategy every time I play a no reload game.

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Post by D. Sauzi » Sat Oct 24, 2009 12:43 am

its a bad first fifteen minutes of the game, indeed, though pretty intense and definitely worth it ;)

regarding those dual classes it might well be i only looked up those rules after installing some fix pack option from baldurdash, i believe there was a line in there on duals.

come to think of it, care to join the RPG a forum below?
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Post by Gorth » Sat Oct 24, 2009 6:21 am

D. Sauzi wrote:its a bad first fifteen minutes of the game,
regarding those dual classes it might well be i only looked up those rules after installing some fix pack option from baldurdash, i believe there was a line in there on duals.
Wasn't that just a fix for triple-classing? I.e. FMT that would lose out on some abilities or some such (never tried such a weird construct) :?
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Post by D. Sauzi » Sat Oct 24, 2009 2:38 pm

i wouldnt know, i have about 12 to 15 tweaks installed on my 'clean' install, let me have a look (though that is on bg2 and tutu)
Ah, i found one in the Gibberlings 3 pack that i think i use, but it just allows Barbarians and Wild Mages to dual class. From what i see in the desciption there is still an oddball, in that fighters can go to druid, but wizards cant. I see nothing on F-M-T combinations though the 15-17 talk should work there. Ill search a bit more later on how the dual stuff should be working, i always doubt the 15-17 stuff myself, taking 17s in all important stats to be sure.

Right now in that multiplayer IWD game with my roommate i am planning on a fighter->mage, who has 18 str and 17 dex and int, he can dual to Thief and Mage according to screen.
The other guy i have btw, is a F/M/T multi :), i like him quite well, even though i made the mistake of thinking backstabs with martial weapons works in iwd just like bg2. As such his axe and halberd points are somewhat wasted and i am now putting points in.. ehm.. dagger.
Still though hes a lot of fun, as i use castings of mage armor and mirror image to keep off the attacks, hide and sneak well with the dagger for backstab openings and scouting, and using massive axes and halberds when the cover is blown. His only problem is hit points, i believe hes 3/3/4 now and still has but 18 hp, compared to our two tanks being far beyond 40.
Come to think of it, i think ill have a look trough available iwd tweak packs, there must be some interesting stuff around, like stacking ammo or maybe in retrospect fixing that backstab bug. (I dont see the problem with it, as a 3e player i consider gaining the proficiency in a weapon is enough training already, and axes and spears can be planted in the crotch or armpit just as easily.)


below are all the tweaks i have installed usually, which i listed mainly for own reference searching for that dual class option.
Thinking about picking up my nonraising game btw, i took a look at my save yesterday and it turns out im just before the Duchal Palace with that game, with 7 NPCs left, one bottle of wine should finish it.

Full Sauzitweaked BG2/Tutu:
Gibberlings3: Force Dialog Pause, Interjections, Kick Out Dialogs, Add Bag of Holding (&other containers), Multi Stronghold, Bonus Merchants, Dialog/Romance fixes, P&P spell tables, Druids use Cleric progress, No XP Cap, Expanded Dual Class (bbn & wild), True Grandmastery, No Gather Party Sound, Unlimited Stacking, Faster CutScenes, No Cloak of Mirroring Animation,
d0ttweak: Dimension Door, Summon Limit
King Dutkas Thief (a l3 and 5 trap disarming spell) and Solaufein.
plus everything from baldurdash (fix&dialog, 1.12), latest tob patch (26498) and Shadowkeeper for lost quest items.
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